It's Not Normal, It's Toxic Podcast

From Poker Pro to Divorce Pro

September 19, 2022

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I'm Dr. Heidi — toxic relationship and emotional abuse (graduate) specialist. I'm here to help you find freedom from your situation. 

Meet. Dr. Heidi

How this poker pro turned into a divorce pro from navigating his toxic relationship. Join me today with Rob with WTF Divorce. He found that navigating divorce was much more difficult than he thought it would be. He has established a solid following helping many make this journey with the support that they need.

There were many reasons that I stayed in an unhealthy relationship for so many years (see episode “8 Reasons We Stay). Listen now to the 8 reasons that I finally left the toxic relationship of my past. They may sound similar.

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  • How to spot the drama and trauma in a relationship
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The 10 Critical Questions To Ask When Hiring An Attorney for Your Divorce From A Toxic Partner


Full Transcript

From Poker Pro to Divorce Pro Episode September 19 2022


divorce, people, dating, friends, feel, men, date, instagram, listening, find, wtf, kids, relationship, talk, isolation, problem, toxic relationship, day, life, person


Welcome to it’s not normal, it’s toxic rid your life of toxic people. I’m Dr. Heidi. I am a toxic relationship awareness and healing specialist. My mission is to provide hope, healing and freedom to those whose lives have been affected by toxic relationships, emotional abuse, and narcissistic behaviors. Though I am not a licensed mental health professional, I have been there, I have done the work and I have healed. I am someone who has spent several years walking a similar path to yours. My role is to provide you the education to understand your situation for what it really is to help you regain your own power and ultimately, step into your new life of freedom. You can find me and all my services at coaching with Dr.


Hey, everybody, welcome back you’re listening to it’s not normal. It’s toxic rid your life of toxic people. This of course, is Dr. Heidi because it’s always Dr. Heidi. And actually I have the most patient guest for you today. The reason I say patient is I think I rescheduled with him like eight times or it felt like eight times. So I have to prove to him that I have my stuff put together today. Summers a little crazy. I’ve been up and down the road to the lake with family in and out. So I’m hoping to get realigned, while he shows me what a professional podcaster looks like. So anyway, Rob, welcome to the show. We have we have Rob with WTF divorce here today. And I’m super excited to hear about what he has to say because I haven’t heard a lot of his information or his story. So thanks for being here, Rob.


Thank you, Heidi. And you say patients my I don’t know what I call them now. But my father in law previously, I’m divorced now would say he’d see me with the young kids. He said, Man to be a dad, you gotta have the patience of a dead man. Yeah, I was. I was like, yep, that’s pretty good. And you tack on divorce to you’re really better have that kind of patience. So all good. I’m happy to be be on a conversation with you.


Yes, I was thinking that and I kept thinking every time I’d reschedule, I kept thinking he is going to think I have no clue. I don’t know what for a while. This summer, I felt like I had no clue. So we found each other through Instagram, just because a lot of our stuff kind of you know, resonates with the other. But tell us a little bit about yourself and tell us how you got into this work. And actually what your business


is? Yeah, absolutely. So I have a kind of a unique background. I’m a former Las Vegas poker pro. I ended up getting married in Vegas, she was not from Vegas, but we ended up having three young kids there, raise them and move to the Atlanta area where a year or two like two years later, I ended up getting divorced, pretty amicable divorce now that I have some context of what divorce looks like. But I’ve had a dad podcast called dad the best I can where I talk to other dads about what they’re going through. And then when I started going through divorce, I was like just tidal wave of, oh my god, this is a lot. I don’t know who to talk to. This is hitting me from emotional financial, like a three kids seven, five and two at the time, that I now got to have half the time, just me and an apartment. And I was just very overwhelmed by the entire thing. And it was also the start of the pandemic and 2020. So I was just like, isolated and it was a lot. And I ended up going on to Instagram of all places and I started finding content about divorce. It was actually through dating, which is how I say most guys end up you know, getting into this kind of world of improvement after divorce because cliche what most guys do right after the divorce, they hop on the apps and then you realize, oh, I got a lot of problems I’ve got to fix. So I started finding some really helpful information about divorce dating some of it from men, which I found really refreshing. And I was kind of at a crossroads. I thought there’s so much awesome info out there. But everybody that I talked to that was divorced, especially men had never heard of it. I didn’t even know there were podcasts like yours. So I thought hmm, I have a marketing background podcast background, why don’t I just find a way to kind of create a bridge, help people find these things that they’re dealing with? And it was fulfilling for me helping people and as you know, you know, teaching people you learn so much too. So it was really therapeutic for me as well.


And I do think that there’s so much divorce around. Now, you’re always hearing about somebody go through a divorce. But then when you’re when you’re actually one that’s doing it. It’s it’s amazing how much you don’t know. You know? Because maybe because we never divorced never crosses our mind until all of a sudden, there we are. So, so in. What were the things that that surprised you the most through the divorce, and I’m kind of calling you on the carpet here. I understand that. But what were you like, Oh, my, oh, my goodness, you’re kidding.


Well, the first thing is what you said is like, clearly the numbers are, I don’t even know, let’s say 50%. I’m sure they’re higher. But I and I was 43. When I got divorced. I couldn’t, I didn’t know one person that was divorced. And like my circle of friends. So it was extremely isolating. My parents are married. So I just had no context of, you know, I know that this is so common, but it’s very isolating when you’re the one going through it. And your friends don’t really know how to talk to you about it, they kind of I would say my friends would want the highlight reel of the dating apps, and they just want to know the the good stuff. So yeah, it was just so many different emotions, you’ve got resentment, you’ve got confusion, you’ve got overwhelm was a big thing that these transitions have, I have three kids half the time. And now I have nobody and I need to go date and I’m meeting people that are divorced. And like, you’re my brain was just completely scrambled. So I think for that first year or so, it was a lot of just like holding on to the steering wheel and just trying to get through it, which is what I tell people first year is just gonna suck pretty much no matter what. I think understanding that makes it a little easier instead of oh, it’s gonna be great. You’ll meet somebody I think that can feel like kind of dismissive to people.


Yeah, yeah. And I think not. And I don’t know what your situation was. But I don’t think it makes a difference. If you’re the one that you know, what’s the divorce or you’re the one that received the service. You go through it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. And I don’t think it matters how, how bad the relationship is, you go through the whole time questioning, did I make the right decision? Because Because when you look at the divorce process, in general, it is a ginormous mountain to climb. You got to jump through all these hoops. Of course, the court system is way behind, we’re on the schedule of the attorneys. Nobody’s in a hurry, but you, you know, and you look at this huge mountain, and then you look back at what you’re leaving, and you think, Oh, that was way easier. And I’m familiar with that. Let’s just do that. So you go through this whole what, you know, what am I doing? Can I make it what’s out there? Am I going to be alone, but you know, I’m not going to be by myself for the rest of my life. And, and I think that that’s some of the that answers that people never know, until they just, they started. I was the only one from my family or, you know, my surrounding people that was divorced too. So I felt very, I felt very, I’m gonna say black sheep. Because I felt like everybody’s looking at you like, Oh, what did you do wrong? Because nobody else hears divorce you know? And to your point you feel like they’re getting like their Pepsi in their popcorn to hear the next what’s what’s going on in the crazy and so you do feel isolated going through it because you want people to know but you don’t want people to know when you get exhausted talking about it.


Yeah, I think that’s the one of the biggest things is like you have this feeling I just want connection, which you end up getting kind of through dating is like their only way when you for guys that don’t have friends. But then you can start talking to people and then you’re just dumping and you just want to vent and so that doesn’t feel good either. So it’s that just kind of like exacerbates the isolation. I really just want somebody to get it. But when I talk to them, I know how it sounds I don’t want to be complaining all the time. So it’s, it’s it’s really confusing for people and just because it happens like and you’re in your 40s or 50s, your, your I have a kindergartener now that’s how I feel like people are when they go through the divorce, you just because you’ve had a relationship before it doesn’t mean you’re prepared for any of this. And, and also, just because divorce, I always say is almost always long term, good investment, you know, long term, it’s gonna be for the best, most likely for almost everybody in the beginning like that first year, it’s your life’s probably gonna get worse before it gets better. And that’s a hard thing, which I imagine a lot of people in mediocre marriages are like, I’ll take the, you know, crazy the hell I know, versus like, you know, stepping off that cliff because it’s, it’s scary. And it’s kind of like, we’re voluntarily signing up for this. I’m paying 1000s of dollars, what the hell are we doing? Right,


right. You know, and I think like, for me, and for a lot of the people that I work with, which, you know, are on all different scales, but, you know, we throw so much into the types of relationships that that I work with, you know, we’re trying to make them happy. We’re trying to avoid conflict. We’re trying to change this, we’re trying to change that we’re trying to change ourselves to fit better. And then all of a sudden, we’re in the middle of the divorce. And we have no idea who we are. We don’t know what makes us happy. We don’t know what hobbies we want, you know, we were worried people don’t like us, because we’ve gone through this whole, you know, stolen identity thing through that. And I think that’s very isolating for people, as well. So so when you send over an email about, you know, the things that we can talk about, there’s one thing on here that I’m curious about you, you said that you could talk about why guys suck at divorce?


Yes, there are so many reasons that you know, I, I sucked at it, too. Whenever I tried even even meeting guys that are going through a divorce, they must like live in caves, because I could never even see them out. Which again, is why I end up on dating apps like trying to meet people just for connection. I think there’s a lot of reasons. For one, a lot of guys myself included, a lot of my closest friends are from when I was you know, in high school college that I’ve kept in touch with new friends were from, you know, the kids and marriage and sports. And now I’ve moved out and I don’t have that anymore. So I think a lot of people are like, Oh, crap, women seem to have like more of a community, they have friends that they can go to. I think guys like when that, you know, plug is pulled, they’re like, I got two friends here. And they don’t want to hear about this or they’re married with kids. So I think that isolation is a is a big problem for sure.


Yeah. And and now I’m not throwing the women under the bus because I am one. So women, I’m on your side. But I do think there’s something to go with what what you said about that women get together and we talk about our problems. Men get together and more often than not don’t. Right, so women can get together and they never don’t have anything to talk about. So I can I can see what you’re saying. So how how did you go about finding new friends? Like if if you’re looking for, you know, new life new stuff? How did you go about that?


Yeah, it was it was literally I was Googling it. I didn’t know. I mean, one thing I tell everybody is guys also struggle with going to therapy, things like that. There’s an ego thing. It’s also complicated. I was like, three months, I can go see somebody, I got a problem now like if you can’t see me now. So I think that’s a piece of it that I always recommend, try to find a professional to talk to but what I found stumbled upon through Instagram and clubhouse at the time was this group called divorced over 40. They’re at divorced over And they have free meetup groups, but they were not dating. They’re like, we’re just people that are divorced. And I was like, you know, I joined the group. And the head guy asked me if I wanted to help run the Atlanta chapter, which I was like, No, I don’t have time for that. But he said, Just Just do it. And you meet people, even if they don’t turn into close friends that you can have those kinds of conversations with. And in some ways, I’m sure you see this too, like having those kind of friendships that are not your closest best friends or not your family who has all this history. And they know, it’s kind of easier to open up in a lot of ways to people that are, you know, kind of a little more superficial, newer friends. So my advice


ends up being more a support system, kind of


Exactly. Just because your family wants the best for you. But sometimes they’re adding to the problem. Oh, he was the worst, or we hate him. And you’re just like, I don’t need to hear that right now. So hearing it from somebody that’s been through it can be really helpful. But I think for guys, it’s harder for guys to meet other guys. And I think like that’s something we all realize, oh crap when we’re divorced, or I don’t go out drinking at the bar anymore. I’m not gonna have my friends here. How am I going to find people? So you got to really get creative, and I’ll add one thing. It’s all on you too. Nobody’s coming to you to help you. Hey, Rob, let’s go have a beer, talk about things. I got to be the one that’s like, Hey, Greg, you know, like, it’d be really nice and he’s busy and then I do it again. And he’s and now I’m like feeling


like, he knows you’re really not busy. He just doesn’t want to talk about it.


It’s just like, again, it reinforces that isolation.


So So did you find yourself doing a lot of like self improvement self discovery after your divorce?


Yeah, I think I mean, I was doing a lot of people say don’t date like for a year or whatever, which I think sounds nice in theory, but especially for guys are like well, I can’t sit home alone for three days straight so I was dating and also you know, reading a lot listening to a lot of podcasts are really helpful for me. So yeah, I’ve always been interested in self improvement and look like after divorce. We all play our part in it. We’re like, man, maybe I’m I text you got to take responsibility for your part, even if it’s an Again, I had an amicable divorce. But how can how am I not seeing these red flags? And I thought using dating is a great way to kind of practice, like spotting these things and seeing God is that like you said before this, I’m sure a lot of your your audience has this codependent ish, pleasing kind of vibe that I had. And I imagine a lot of people going through a divorce had, where is that getting me into trouble? And can I practice saying, No, I don’t want to go out tonight or? No, it was a fun date. But I don’t think it’s a match and that like muscle that is completely atrophied. And marriage, you now have to develop and good luck doing it.


Yeah, yeah. And it’s funny that you say that, because, you know, of course, the clients that I work with, are, are absolutely starting self discovery from the from the ground level. So I always tell them, I’m not going to tell you when you can date, that’s completely up to you. But when you do you have to know your identity so well. That that you the only person you have to trust is you because you always hear that. Yeah, but I don’t trust anybody. I don’t trust it. Okay, I get that. But if we can get you to where you’re so solid, and who you are and your values and what you want, and learning to say no, that you don’t really have to trust anybody. But yourself. Yeah, but what if we go on a date, and then they want to go on another one, and I don’t want to go on another one. Then Then you say thanks, but it wasn’t the connection I was looking for. And in your head, you say? And if I never see you again, so what? But but we’re not used to doing that. Because, you know, we don’t want to be mean, we don’t want to be the bad guy. We don’t want to feel guilty. So all of a sudden, we’re on the second date. You know, and so so when I get to people, people to the place where, okay, now, can I take? Yes, you can date but you use the dating apps to spot the red flags that I’ve spent the last six months teaching you? And if you don’t like them, block them, dump them? Who cares? Yeah. You know, in the scope of your life, they don’t really mean anything. Yeah.


And you should get that practice, too. I mean, that’s something that I do about dating is scary. And yes, you what you don’t want to do is slide into another relationship that’s like up, I’m in it again, and I can’t get out of it. Use dating in the beginning, almost as like, I’m gonna go out on some dates, and I’m gonna break up with somebody or I’m gonna say no like that, and then realize, and what I realized is like, when you’re actually honest about it, a you know, it was fun, but I just didn’t feel the connection. They like the other person’s like, respects that they are honest. And then you’re like, oh, I can stand up for myself and say what I feel and I don’t have to worry about their feelings all the time, which is so wired into us,


right? And sometimes what I’ll do is I’ll say, let’s just compose an answer that you save in your notes. So every time you don’t want to go to a second date, you don’t have to rethink it, rewrite it, you just copy and paste and there goes


love copy paste is the is a hack for everything co parenting dating, for advise everybody to use that.


Yeah, the the co parenting copy paste is what does the paperwork say?


Yes, I can’t imagine I was just listening to one of your episodes. And I have a lot of empathy being in WTF divorce is like a community, we have a lot of people sharing what they’re going through and the levels of on the spectrum of how stressful things can get and how tense like, you can’t do it alone. You need help, even if it’s listening to a podcast to start so credit to anybody that’s putting in the work to at least start the figure it out.


Yeah, yeah. And, and, of course, where I come from is, is you’re not really 100% going to figure out the type of relationships that I work with, until you understand that person, because we’re continually going well, how come they did this? And how come they did that? So I put a lot of in, you know, into, well, you got to you got to see the world through their eyes, so that then you can make the best decision. But I’m curious about this. What do you see in yourself now, that was different than when you first came out of your divorce?


I think there’s just a little bit


more than before, you know, we come out of divorces thinking, Oh, we gotta get back to the person that we were before. Well, you’re never going back to that person because you’re a different person. Now.


Like, you go through a phase, you’re almost on a high because your papers are signed, and you’re like, I’m free. And then you’re like, Oh, crap, you hit this valley. And then it’s like that kind of who am I? And I think even that’s a hard thing. We tell people like, you know, this is about your self worth. And you know, it’s all about you and you need to accept that but I think that’s hard for people to understand because a lot of people have not been with anybody besides their spouse for 30 years. So I think like it’s just it’s a roller coaster, but I think a lot of it’s just like a lot of that bitterness and resent Man slowly kind of dissolves. Because you also realize, and intellectually I knew this. This is not helping me. This is not serving me me just spitting these stories of what are they doing? Or oh, there’s a picture on social media, which I quickly learned block unfollow, even, even if your best friends like, don’t you need that boundary? Yeah. So I think that just takes time in a lot of ways. And also just to kind of, I would say to myself, and I say this to myself as like a parent, like, resistance is futile. Like, if you like, the stronger you hold on to it, the stronger it gets. And I’m like, I know that people tell me that I’m still doing it. But if you can get even 10%, better 20% Better over a few months. That’s progress. And I think we, we forget that we’re making progress, we feel like up, I’m just the same old person, I’m getting all spun out over this, this text again, you might be doing better.


Right? So so let’s just say that there’s somebody listening, that’s a male that is going through a divorce, and is going through the struggles, like you did? What? Where would you tell them to start? Like what would be the first three things you tell them to start? As far as? Not necessarily the divorce but steps for them to work on themselves? Or, or to improve how they go through the process? Or the aftermath of the process?


Yeah, well, first start finding and you can come to WTF divorce on Instagram, or WTF So find some content where you can like in the car, you can just start to dip your toe in and listen to other people find other guys that you can listen to going through it, you’re not going to probably find that in real life. So find them virtually, if you need to, you know, the cliche things like go to the gym, just get your body moving. Like, we all know that but you really got to drag yourself there sometimes get outside because it’s just like, the isolation can really snowball. So yeah, I think, start to educate yourself. Just accept, give yourself grace to like, it’s gonna suck. You screwed up in a lot of ways the other person screwed up. You just beating yourself up over it. And again, I talked about it, but I was doing this, you know, well, it’s easy to give advice a lot harder to follow it for yourself, but just like every now and then just be like, You know what this is this day, it’s just a disaster. You know, like, be able to say that and be like, I’m not going to fight that and say, Why isn’t my life you know, going? Well, I’ll say that. But at least like have that reminder. Maybe write it on your phone, like some days are are just gonna suck. And it’s gonna take time if you expect this to just flip in a month, three months a year, that expectation is what might be holding you back. Like you have to just sit in it for a little while longer than you want to.


Yeah. And I always tell people to the emergency text I get are between eight and 10 o’clock at night. Right? Okay, so have you ever been on a diet? You know, we do great for breakfast. We have our chicken and broccoli for lunch. We do great. But at eight o’clock at night? Well, we haven’t even had an Oreo. So we eat the whole pack. Right? Because we’re tired. We’re exhausted our mind is so you’re gonna find that at night is when your brain spins. Well, I tell everybody go to bed. Because I promise when you get up in the morning. This is gonna seem so little compared to what it feels like tonight.


I never understood that cliche. Don’t go to bed angry. I’m like, No, that’s the opposite. Just go to bed. Like almost all the time. You’re just exhausted and no even spinning in your head. Meanwhile, I stay up I don’t I don’t practice what I preach. I’m staying up way too late still to this day, getting myself into you know, the bad habits and distracting and things like that. But yeah, sleep. You know, you really just there cliche things that we all know we should do. But you really need to at least remind yourself when you’re going through a divorce you need you’re going through a trauma, you need to take care of yourself. Because going back to it. Your ex wife’s not going to take care of you anymore. Your friends are all of a sudden not as close to you. It’s like it’s on you now. And that’s that’s scary for a lot of guys.


Yeah. Well, I think it’s scary. Anyway, when you talk about the don’t go to bed angry. So. So my former relationship was was extremely toxic. I wouldn’t have known it when I was in it because I lived it every day. Now looking back, I’m like, wow. But I was a trained fighter. By the time I left that and my kids were trained fighters, like everything was a confrontation. Well, then I met the man that I’m married to now, who handles everything very calmly. So we’d have a disagreement, and he wants to sleep on it. Well, not me because I’m a trained fighter, you know, and, and now it’s funny. It was not funny when he started this but he basically had to train me that things would be better in the morning and he would go to bed and pretend he was sleeping and Of course, I knew he wasn’t sleeping because I was still, you know, I was fresh out of this or, you know, not, did not have my trauma healed yet. And it would drive me insane because I knew he wasn’t sleeping. But I knew I didn’t want to fight with him either. And it took about maybe two years of him just go into bed. And then he’s right. Because in the morning, you get up and you’re like, oh, I don’t even I don’t even know what we were talking about.


I don’t even remember. Yeah, it’s like kids, too. I’m like, just go to bed, you’re tired, you’re hungry. Yes, just go to sleep. And the next day will be, you’ll end up there probably, again at 10pm. But like, at least you’ll start the day with like a fresh, fresh slate.


Yeah. And sometimes what I would do is I would keep the stuff that I like to do for the end of the day, you know, they always say, do what you don’t like to do in the morning. So if that’s something that has to be addressed, to dress it in the morning, and have something ready to go, you know, your favorite movie or your whatever. It’s not going to keep you from spiral or spiraling, but it’s going to help that late night. Night. So So now you’re in a relationship now. And I’m curious, did you find her on an app?


Of course, I don’t know how anybody makes anybody otherwise? Yes.


Okay. So after then this is just me wanting to know. So, after you met her, did you know that she was different than the other ones you met on the app?


Yes, I mean, a lot of the dating on the app is like filtering. And it’s like a lot of, you know, not great. And then you’re like up somebody who’s a little better than not great. Is this who I should go with? And then you’re like, I don’t want to end up in a relationship, because there’s a fear of that. So, yes, instantly, I knew she was different. But I also, you know, interestingly enough, we kind of started off as friends, which is something I think a lot of people don’t do and think that’s like up there’s got to be explosive chemistry right out of the gate. And we kind of took a different route. She was actually dating somebody else I was, you know, dating other people. And I think that gave us a little bit of like, calm where we could see, oh, they are a good person. I understand that. Yeah. So there was difference. But again, when you’re dating after divorce, chances are they’re divorced and they have kids and they have problems and they have all this trauma to that they’re unwinding. So that’s another thing which could be an entire other episode for us of like, now you’re I barely got my stuff figured out. Now I’m taking on this stuff. And as a guy, we’re naturally fixers, here’s what you should say and write this. Don’t say that in the email. And then I’m like, this is probably not a good pattern to get into either. So now you’re back to square one of like, I don’t know what the hell I’m doing.


Right? Right. Um, my husband has agreed to do a podcast on you know, dating somebody post traumatic, but he seems to keep avoiding my schedule. But yeah, I think I think it is good for listeners, because when you’re dating somebody that’s come out of that. It’s it is a lot to take on. I mean, he took on a lot when he took on me. So so how do people find you and do you have services? Or do you just connect people with other people?


Yeah, so I’m at at WTF divorce on Instagram. And WTF Easy to remember name my girlfriend, I actually came up with it. We’re after 700 bad names.


We’re like, is it It’s Wednesday, Thursday, Friday divorce, right? Oh,


I didn’t even think about that. Yeah, we have because basically, we walk around as a parent or especially as a divorce just like what the f anybody seeing this shaking my head divorce could be in another name, but they were WTF divorce I personally don’t offer coaching services right now. Mainly because I’m like, surrounded by all these incredible coaches, specifically coaches for men, which is something that you know, is a bigger need, and hopefully we can let people know that that is an option that it’s different than going to a therapist to like, they’re going to take you somewhere that you know, you need to get to that you can’t do on your own.


And it’s it’s you’re correct in saying that because I coached both both men and women. And it is it is completely different dynamics of of you know, taking him through that. Well taking through the getting out process is completely different. But then through that post process it is very different also


Yeah, I think men need to be around other men and talk to other men and and like that’s that’s hard to do in the beginning. And I think that’s kind of that was why I started it is to help divorce dads, but quickly I realized that like your audience, I’m sure 80% Are women that are hungry for this kind of content. So I was like I let’s this is for everybody anyways, but if we can slowly open the door for a few guys and they’re the kind of lurk there I get some direct messages like thank you so much for sharing that that’s exactly what I’m going through. That like makes me feel good, but it’s You know, that’s what I tell people. It’s like, it’s our job to educate people about divorce because they don’t even know the questions to ask. So anything that I can do to help people feel a little more normal and less alone is really fulfilling for me.


Yep. And of course, I work in the realm of abuse. And of course, the stigma is, it’s mostly females, and the statistic is actually 6040. Which, yes, which is, which is way higher. So 40% men are involved in abusive relationships. The problem is, men aren’t going to talk about it for one, you know, gender, but also for, for men to admit that they are actually being abused by a female partner, or a male partner for for that purpose is is difficult. I do a lot more with emotional abuse and physical abuse. And we deny that. Like, it’s not physical abuse, it must not be abused. And so I think sometimes it’s hard for just men to speak up because it’s, I mean, it was embarrassing for me to say, I mean, I had a doctor, and I’ve been through all the psychology classes, so I’m too smart to be in an abusive relationship. You don’t I just I feel like it’s that shamefulness. And so and that’s why when I saw that you worked with the males, I was like, yes, we need to get him on here. So yeah, so yes, so thank you for being here. And and I’m sure that any of you males that are wanting more information can message him through Instagram, or he probably has an email through his website.


Yeah. Bad WTF that welcome any emails? And yeah, just reach out because that one outward message can can change the trajectory of your life?


Yes, for sure. And we will be back on here because I do want to discuss the the dating and the, the dating someone who has been in in a unhealthy relationship, because I know sometimes from your point of view, you’re probably like, what am I doing? I know my husband thought that several times you probably


very helpful for people because guess what, when you’re dating after divorce, or dating somebody probably divorce that might not have. So yeah, that’ll be a great conversation. I’m ready to schedule that therapy session whenever you’re ready. Yes.


Perfect. Okay, well, thank you for being here and we will talk to you soon. Thank you